When was the last time Nintendo pushed the industry forward?

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Avatar image for XVision84
#1 Edited by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

DISCLAIMER: This is not a Nintendo hate thread. They make excellent games, it's just an observation I thought worth discussing.

Think of the latest strides in the industry.

Red dead 2 has pushed the bar in terms of how reactive or lively open world games can be.

The witcher 3 raised the bar in terms of writing/story/quest quality despite the massive world.

Fortnite/Overwatch/PUBG introduced big changes in the online multiplayer landscape.

Uncharted 1/2 set the bar for cinematic action adventure experiences.

Batman arkham paved the way for future superhero games.

League/Dota helped make esports mainstream and brought back MOBAs.

We've come a very long way in terms of game mechanics, but I haven't seen any of this from Nintendo's camp. They make very good, polished games, but those games don't seem to make any lasting industry changes.

Do you agree or disagree?

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#2 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (9715 posts) -

Breath of the Wild showed how open world games should be made. That was in 2017, so fairly recent.

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#3 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

you had your mind wiped by total recall or something?

breath of the wild pushed open world just as much as red dead. both have a 97 on meta.

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#4 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

mario odyssey pushed 3D platforming as well.

no other 3D platformer comes close.

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#5 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

hardwarewise they created the first ever hybrid console.

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#6 Edited by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

motion controls are still used by phones and the switch has many games with motion controls.

also sonys move controllers which are used by VR also came from nintendo.

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#7 Edited by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@KBFloYd: @PurpleMan5000: Metascores just show that the game is high quality, they don't show that the game has changed something.

I don't doubt that Breath of the Wild was excellent, but what did it do that raised the bar?

Red Dead Redemption 2 has dynamic NPC interaction to a degree never seen before in a game of it's size. Arthur interacts with almost every single item dynamically and with no loading screens. Blood, scratches, dirt, tiredness, it all accumulates and is noticed by everybody and can be dealt with realistically. The detail is insane. Let's also not forget that it's graphically beautiful while being in the biggest world Rockstar has created.

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#8 Edited by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@KBFloYd: Motion controls and the hybrid device haven't really been leaps in the industry. They're more like fads in my opinion. How successful have playstation's motion controls been? It was more of a stepping stone for their VR technology with the way it used lights. It didn't lastingly change the way we play games, it was more of a temporary fun factor.

The technology in the switch isn't really a substantial leap either. It's weak console hardware that can function as a portable tablet. I strongly doubt that future consoles will incorporate this or that future games will be built with this in mind.

Nintendo does an excellent job with the hardware they release (ex: taking advantage of Wii and Switch), but it's more like they're moving from one gimmick to the next. I fail to see how Mario pushed 3D platforming. Again, I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about changing the gaming landscape in a substantial way that it influences other developers.

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#9 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

@XVision84: oh i see. you were just trolling.

ok continue with your thread.

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#10 Edited by commander (15263 posts) -

They did make the strongest handheld/portable console ever, if I'm not mistaken

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#11 Posted by enzyme36 (3821 posts) -

Breath of the Wild changed open world gaming... in game mountain climbing and mobility has been changed forever

Hybrid gaming device

Netflix style gaming with your network access

Gyro controls

Local co-op accessibility

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#12 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -
@KBFloYd said:

@XVision84: oh i see. you were just trolling.

ok continue with your thread.

>sees arguments that he can't counter

>pulls out the troll card

Never seen that one before :P

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#13 Posted by Archangel3371 (26444 posts) -

I’ll say they did with the release of the Switch and Breath of the Wild.

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#14 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

@XVision84 said:
@KBFloYd said:

@XVision84: oh i see. you were just trolling.

ok continue with your thread.

>sees arguments that he can't counter

>pulls out the troll card

Never seen that one before :P

arguments? so that's what those were.

hmmm i learn something everyday.

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#15 Posted by DocSanchez (4923 posts) -

They have relied on short term gimmicks for a long time, and haven't really pushed the gaming industry forward. No one is using the wii's crappy motion controls.

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#16 Edited by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

@DocSanchez said:

They have relied on short term gimmicks for a long time, and haven't really pushed the gaming industry forward. No one is using the wii's crappy motion controls.

yea no one except vive and sony and nintendo themselves.

RE4 will release on switch most likely with gyro plus comparable graphics to the ps4/x1 and will be arguably the best console version.

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#17 Posted by Sevenizz (2222 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000: I disagree. Overly fragile weapon damage ruins the experience. There’s too much NOT to do in the open world. Dungeons are short, bland and lacking creativity.

I’m sorry, but as an owner of this game, I call BS. It’s ok and will entertain you for a few hours, but it’s highly overrated and definitely not genre defining.

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#18 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@KBFloYd: What did you think they were, sharks? Lol

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#19 Posted by KBFloYd (21072 posts) -

@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: What did you think they were, sharks? Lol

you spoke only of red dead. you didnt mention any of zelda's accomplishments in open world.

which means:

1. you didnt even play zelda and are talking out your ass

or

2. youre trolling

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#20 Posted by Pikminmaniac (11314 posts) -

Breath of the Wild definitely fits the bill here. It's unbelievable what they did with that game.

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#21 Posted by jcrame10 (4485 posts) -

@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: @PurpleMan5000: Metascores just show that the game is high quality, they don't show that the game has changed something.

I don't doubt that Breath of the Wild was excellent, but what did it do that raised the bar?

Red Dead Redemption 2 has dynamic NPC interaction to a degree never seen before in a game of it's size. Arthur interacts with almost every single item dynamically and with no loading screens. Blood, scratches, dirt, tiredness, it all accumulates and is noticed by everybody and can be dealt with realistically. The detail is insane. Let's also not forget that it's graphically beautiful while being in the biggest world Rockstar has created.

Breath of the Wild showed a game with a big boring overworld full of nothing can still sell millions of copies because Nintendo and because Zelda.

seriously, the game has like 6 dungeons or something in it total. that's it. i never finished it or picked it up again after a month.

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#22 Posted by jcrame10 (4485 posts) -

@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: Motion controls and the hybrid device haven't really been leaps in the industry. They're more like fads in my opinion. How successful have playstation's motion controls been? It was more of a stepping stone for their VR technology with the way it used lights. It didn't lastingly change the way we play games, it was more of a temporary fun factor.

The technology in the switch isn't really a substantial leap either. It's weak console hardware that can function as a portable tablet. I strongly doubt that future consoles will incorporate this or that future games will be built with this in mind.

Nintendo does an excellent job with the hardware they release (ex: taking advantage of Wii and Switch), but it's more like they're moving from one gimmick to the next. I fail to see how Mario pushed 3D platforming. Again, I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about changing the gaming landscape in a substantial way that it influences other developers.

yeah, and VR is as much of a fad as motion controls were. I don't see VR being a long lasting thing. It's not extremely popular right now.

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#23 Posted by BassMan (9448 posts) -

N64 days was probably the last time. Gimmicky shit aside, everything else they have done since has been pretty formulaic and nothing that stands out from what the rest of the industry is doing.

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#24 Posted by Jag85 (12408 posts) -
@XVision84 said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not a Nintendo hate thread. They make excellent games, it's just an observation I thought worth discussing.

Think of the latest strides in the industry.

Red dead 2 has pushed the bar in terms of how reactive or lively open world games can be.

The witcher 3 raised the bar in terms of writing/story/quest quality despite the massive world.

Fortnite/Overwatch/PUBG introduced big changes in the online multiplayer landscape.

Uncharted 1/2 set the bar for cinematic action adventure experiences.

Batman arkham paved the way for future superhero games.

League/Dota helped make esports mainstream and brought back MOBAs.

The last time was in 2017, when Breath of the World revolutionised open-world design:

In 2017, the open-world design of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild has been described by critics as being revolutionary, and by developers as a paradigm shift for open-world design. In contrast to the more structured approach of most open-world games, Breath of the Wild features a large and fully interactive world that is generally unstructured and rewards the exploration and manipulation of its world. Inspired by the original 1986 Legend of Zelda, the open world of Breath of the Wild integrates multiplicative gameplay, where "objects react to the player's actions and the objects themselves also influence each other." Along with a physics engine, the game's open world also integrates a chemistry engine, "which governs the physical properties of certain objects and how they relate to each other," rewarding experimentation. Nintendo has described the game's approach to open-world design as "open air".

In comparison, RDR2 took a step backwards, recycling the same old open-world template that Rockstar has been using for over a decade, with linear mission designs and generally limited world interactivity compared to BOTW. As for TW3, its open-world was well-designed, but it was fundamentally still the same core open-world design as previous open-world games, whereas BOTW's open-world design is a paradigm shift. TW3 was an evolution of the standard open-world template, whereas BOTW is a revolution setting a new open-world template.

In addition:

  • Splatoon was doing the wacky over-the-top online shooter thing years before the likes of Overwatch or Fortnite came along.
  • Resident Evil 4, originally a Nintendo exclusive, set the template for the Uncharted series, as acknowledged by Naughty Dog themselves.
  • It was Spider-Man 2 that paved the way for future superhero games. And Arkham's combat system was largely based on Prince of Persia. Both SM2 and POP were released for the GameCube.
  • Pikmin was a MOBA-like game before DOTA came along.

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#25 Edited by 2Chalupas (6927 posts) -

@commander said:

They did make the strongest handheld/portable console ever, if I'm not mistaken

It's so strong it's being used primarily for 6 year old PS3/Xbox ports.

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#26 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -
@KBFloYd said:
@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: What did you think they were, sharks? Lol

you spoke only of red dead. you didnt mention any of zelda's accomplishments in open world.

which means:

1. you didnt even play zelda and are talking out your ass

or

2. youre trolling

That's a nice false dichotomy you got there :o.

I'll present a 3rd option: I found those accomplishments from red dead amazing and don't attribute the same to breath of the wild.

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#27 Posted by nintendoboy16 (35468 posts) -
@2Chalupas said:
@commander said:

They did make the strongest handheld/portable console ever, if I'm not mistaken

It's so strong it's being used primarily for 6 year old PS3/Xbox ports.

Unless it's an indie game, or something running off UE4 (FighterZ).

Avatar image for XVision84
#28 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -
@Jag85 said:
@XVision84 said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not a Nintendo hate thread. They make excellent games, it's just an observation I thought worth discussing.

Think of the latest strides in the industry.

Red dead 2 has pushed the bar in terms of how reactive or lively open world games can be.

The witcher 3 raised the bar in terms of writing/story/quest quality despite the massive world.

Fortnite/Overwatch/PUBG introduced big changes in the online multiplayer landscape.

Uncharted 1/2 set the bar for cinematic action adventure experiences.

Batman arkham paved the way for future superhero games.

League/Dota helped make esports mainstream and brought back MOBAs.

The last time was in 2017, when Breath of the World revolutionised open-world design:

In 2017, the open-world design of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild has been described by critics as being revolutionary, and by developers as a paradigm shift for open-world design. In contrast to the more structured approach of most open-world games, Breath of the Wild features a large and fully interactive world that is generally unstructured and rewards the exploration and manipulation of its world. Inspired by the original 1986 Legend of Zelda, the open world of Breath of the Wild integrates multiplicative gameplay, where "objects react to the player's actions and the objects themselves also influence each other." Along with a physics engine, the game's open world also integrates a chemistry engine, "which governs the physical properties of certain objects and how they relate to each other," rewarding experimentation. Nintendo has described the game's approach to open-world design as "open air".

In comparison, RDR2 took a step backwards, recycling the same old open-world template that Rockstar has been using for over a decade, with linear mission designs and generally limited world interactivity compared to BOTW. As for TW3, its open-world was well-designed, but it was fundamentally still the same core open-world design as previous open-world games, whereas BOTW's open-world design is a paradigm shift. TW3 was an evolution of the standard open-world template, whereas BOTW is a revolution setting a new open-world template.

In addition:

  • Splatoon was doing the wacky over-the-top online shooter thing years before the likes of Overwatch or Fortnite came along.
  • Resident Evil 4, originally a Nintendo exclusive, set the template for the Uncharted series, as acknowledged by Naughty Dog themselves.
  • It was Spider-Man 2 that paved the way for future superhero games. And Arkham's combat system was largely based on Prince of Persia. Both SM2 and POP were released for the GameCube.
  • Pikmin was a MOBA-like game before DOTA came along.

Those are some good points. I do agree that Red Dead and The Witcher stick with linear level design for the most part, but they're also very complex stories. I will admit BOTW had a lot of things going for it and is the best example I can think of to answer my original question. In my opinion they still don't compare to the advances made on all the other fronts by other platforms/console creators. The multiplicative gameplay is something that stuck out far more in Red Dead Redemption 2 than BOTW from what I've played of them so far.

Splatoon was wacky and over the top, but can we really say it's game changing? Fortnite and Overwatch had a huge social rallying behind them. They also inspired a lot of similar games afterwards (although both of course took inspiration from games prior).

While Resident Evil 4 did, it isn't a Nintendo property. It was originally a Nintendo exclusive, but it's not from Nintendo themselves. It's also not a recent example. I don't doubt that current developments aren't influenced by previous ones.

Spider-Man 2 was indeed a very good game in terms of its mechanics and one of the first notable superhero games. It didn't really launch the superhero genre in the way Arkham did though. There was a long drought of quality superhero games after Spider-Man 2. Arkham took inspiration from it, but epitomized batman so well, and it's helped inspire a big push for more superhero games that are now on the way.

Again, I'm not talking about what was first to the party. I'm talking about what had the biggest impact in terms of the rest of the industry. Look at every MOBA today and I guarantee you that they reference Dota 1 a hell of a lot more than they'd reference Pikmin.

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#29 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -
@jcrame10 said:
@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: Motion controls and the hybrid device haven't really been leaps in the industry. They're more like fads in my opinion. How successful have playstation's motion controls been? It was more of a stepping stone for their VR technology with the way it used lights. It didn't lastingly change the way we play games, it was more of a temporary fun factor.

The technology in the switch isn't really a substantial leap either. It's weak console hardware that can function as a portable tablet. I strongly doubt that future consoles will incorporate this or that future games will be built with this in mind.

Nintendo does an excellent job with the hardware they release (ex: taking advantage of Wii and Switch), but it's more like they're moving from one gimmick to the next. I fail to see how Mario pushed 3D platforming. Again, I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about changing the gaming landscape in a substantial way that it influences other developers.

yeah, and VR is as much of a fad as motion controls were. I don't see VR being a long lasting thing. It's not extremely popular right now.

I disagree with that. Motion controls were never going to work properly. They simply weren't feasible for a vast majority of genres.

VR, on the other hand, can be implemented with just about every genre. It provides immersion to a degree never been seen before. It's silly to expect VR to be popular just now in its infancy. There are so many things we use today that weren't popular in its original stages. When computers were first opened to commercial use, they certainly were not popular. These things take time and development.

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#30 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (17950 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000 said:

Breath of the Wild showed how open world games should be made. That was in 2017, so fairly recent.

Not sure about that... highly debatable.

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#31 Posted by p3anut (6258 posts) -

The DS changed the gaming industry. Very innovated, so many great games and a lot of different gameplays where introduced.

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#32 Posted by pdogg93 (1212 posts) -

Nintendo switch is for children and neckbeards like @KBFloYd

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#33 Posted by sakaiXx (4212 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

In addition:

  • Splatoon was doing the wacky over-the-top online shooter thing years before the likes of Overwatch or Fortnite came along.

I am so sorry Timesplitters, we have failed you

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#34 Edited by Blueberry_Bandit (860 posts) -

The hybrid console approach has clearly pushed the industry forward because many people are buying a Switch that otherwise wouldn't normally go for a Nintendo console. It's unlikely to affect other console manufacturers, but it is affecting the overall ecosystem of gamers that choose to purchase a console.

@jcrame10 said:
@XVision84 said:

@KBFloYd: Motion controls and the hybrid device haven't really been leaps in the industry. They're more like fads in my opinion. How successful have playstation's motion controls been? It was more of a stepping stone for their VR technology with the way it used lights. It didn't lastingly change the way we play games, it was more of a temporary fun factor.

The technology in the switch isn't really a substantial leap either. It's weak console hardware that can function as a portable tablet. I strongly doubt that future consoles will incorporate this or that future games will be built with this in mind.

Nintendo does an excellent job with the hardware they release (ex: taking advantage of Wii and Switch), but it's more like they're moving from one gimmick to the next. I fail to see how Mario pushed 3D platforming. Again, I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about changing the gaming landscape in a substantial way that it influences other developers.

yeah, and VR is as much of a fad as motion controls were. I don't see VR being a long lasting thing. It's not extremely popular right now.

If you don't see it, then you're not looking hard enough. Motion controls and VR couldn't be further apart. VR encompasses all of media and many industries. VR is not in the domain of motion controls, Kinect and such, but rather in the domain of personal computers and smartphones; a computing platform that can potentially reach billions.

It practically outlasts everything by it's nature.

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#35 Edited by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@blueberry_bandit: Also a good point. The use of VR has been very important for clinical psychology (exposure therapy for PTSD or clients with phobias) and also important for physician diagnoses and research purposes.

Keep in mind also that VR station experiences are being built in cinemas across many countries. I had my mind blown trying it out for the first time.

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#36 Posted by xantufrog (10097 posts) -

I think the Switch did, but the graphics whores on here will never ever see eye to eye with me on that, so that's not going to go far. I also think the emergent physics-based gameplay in BotW is huge, and should be an inspiration for future Witchers, HZDs, etc.

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#37 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@blueberry_bandit: To address your first point, I agree that it's a selling point. Nintendo does a good job of creating intriguing consoles. They just don't end up amounting to much afterwards (in recent memory). The Wii sold tremendous amounts because people were interested in its motion controls, but since then it's died down dramatically. The Switch is an interesting idea, but again it'll die down after the console runs its course. Contrast that with Xbox 360 which took huge strides with Xbox LIVE. That became the framework for what we have today in PS+ and Nintendo's online services. We also see a big trend going forward with streaming services, again adopted by the industry at large outside of Nintendo. The Xbox 360's controller also made numerous ergonomic changes that impacted future playstation and xbox controllers.

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#39 Posted by Paco8byu (522 posts) -

Uh Breath of the Wild......

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#40 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -
@xantufrog said:

I think the Switch did, but the graphics whores on here will never ever see eye to eye with me on that, so that's not going to go far. I also think the emergent physics-based gameplay in BotW is huge, and should be an inspiration for future Witchers, HZDs, etc.

I'm hoping physics and AI get some major improvements in the next generation. I've read speculation articles saying that the big jump next gen will be CPU rather than GPU. There is so much more that can be done on that front, I'd say those 2 areas are probably one of the least improved from last gen to the current one.

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#41 Posted by cainetao11 (35697 posts) -

Lmao a comedian told a joke, “when someone starts there sentence with: I’m not racist, but” you gonna here some racist shit lol

Nintendo pushes the industry a lot. Why did Sony and MS try motion controls? It doesn’t matter if you liked them or they are still heavily incorporated. The fact remains the others followed.

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#42 Posted by AJStyles (248 posts) -

NES created a new standard at the time for 2D games.

SNES pushed for more power.

N64 pushed power and 3D graphics.

GameCube did nothing.

Wii motion controls were a terrible gimmick and no one likes them. It failed.

Wii U is a massive failure.

Switch is a sightly better Wii U.

To answer the question, Nintendo has not pushed the industry forward since the N64.

After that, Sony and Microsoft have led the way in innovation that actually stays and become standards(online, HDD, Blu ray, countless gameplay, graphics, power, audio).

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#43 Posted by Mandzilla (2151 posts) -

@ajstyles: What is innovative about the PS4 or Xbox One? They're slightly better versions of the PS3 and 360.

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#44 Posted by XVision84 (14469 posts) -

@cainetao11: I don't take advice from comedians :P. It matters very much that everybody followed, that's what a fad is. All the kids "followed" the fidget spinner fad. Don't see it nowadays. Same with motion controls. Sony barely bothers with it in their E3 conferences anymore, just like Microsoft isn't bothering with Kinect moving forward.

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#45 Posted by 2Chalupas (6927 posts) -

@ajstyles said:

NES created a new standard at the time for 2D games.

SNES pushed for more power.

N64 pushed power and 3D graphics.

GameCube did nothing.

Wii motion controls were a terrible gimmick and no one likes them. It failed.

Wii U is a massive failure.

Switch is a sightly better Wii U.

To answer the question, Nintendo has not pushed the industry forward since the N64.

After that, Sony and Microsoft have led the way in innovation that actually stays and become standards(online, HDD, Blu ray, countless gameplay, graphics, power, audio).

I wouldn't even say the N64, since Playstation dominated them and Nintendo got left behind due to sticking with old tech (ROM cartridges). For better or for worse, not using optical media was a bad business decision. Yeah, 2D to 3D was a huge shift, and Nintendo had some great early 3D games, but that was sorta despite the N64 not necessarily because of it. Although certainly the 64 handled those games perfectly and was faster than PS1, that was back when they realized at least what type of "hardware power" leaps people expected from one gen to the next. It wasn't really "pushing the industry" so much as just making the next logical hardware leap.

That being said,I'm not sure anyone is really revolutionizing the industry now, certainly not Nintendo. It's sorta been steady progress since the PS2/Xbox first started going online. But Nintendo seems to still be playing catchup, they can't even get online sorted out properly and their hardware has been a full gen behind for like 10 years now. The Switch is only current tech as a handheld tablet. Do I care about this distinction? No.

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#46 Posted by kenshiro3948 (390 posts) -

Hard to push boundaries with the dated old hardware they keep using. I miss when Nintendo consoles were actually powerful for their time.

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#47 Posted by FireEmblem_Man (18710 posts) -

@XVision84: Breath of the Wild, while not realistic like the Witcher 3 or RDR2, it had the most advanced physics engine that pushed the level of open world games

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#48 Posted by Ovirew (8407 posts) -

I think Nintendo still manages to churn out some new good games now and again - BotW is a really good recent example of that. The problem on their software end is that they don't focus their manpower on enough big games every console cycle, and they take forever to release big titles and usually have to push back release dates. Smash Ultimate is a good example of this - it probably shouldn't be taking as long to release as it is, given that it's basically an update to Smash 4. But that's probably partly because they don't have too many other games ready to go for the Holidays and that's what they're banking on.

Some smaller games Nintendo has produced in the past - I'm talking about your Dillon's Rolling Westerns, Pushmos and Snipperclips among others - have been quite good and they should encourage focus on a variety of games like that. However, Nintendo tends to waste manpower and resources on a lot of small potatoes games where they should be pouring more into big hits or risky and clever new IPs. Did anyone ask for Rusty's Real Deal Baseball? And wouldn't it be great to have a talented developer like Camelot create more than Mario Tennis and Golf games forever and ever? I just feel like Nintendo isn't focused.

But software isn't the biggest problem with Nintendo. It's hardware and services.

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#49 Edited by uninspiredcup (29223 posts) -

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#50 Posted by mojito1988 (3293 posts) -

Easy. Breath of the Wild and the Switch itself.