Possible PS5 spec leak!

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#1 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DYSQzvkrvPrQ&ved=2ahUKEwjq6oDVkMfeAhWOuFMKHee-AncQwqsBMAN6BAgJEA4&usg=AOvVaw3q1bxM3Ui99YAkQqN4QEHM

Could be and probably is BS but thought I'd post anyway. Some info from the video.

11.2 Tflop Navi based GPU

Zen based processor 6 core/12 threads

16 GB DDR6

Bunch of VR stuff baked in

Backwards compatibility with PS4

Some new Bluray Drive for UHD.

Avatar image for Grey_Eyed_Elf
#2 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

The GPU being based on GCN with rumoured 3640 stream processing units puts it at 56.8 Compute units... A vega 56 has 56 compute units and comes in at 10.5 Tflops and runs at 1400Hz+, how did they get 11.2 TFLOPS with GCN with 56 CU's?.... 7nm die shrink would help but with desktop TDP and cooling, but the PS5 is a console so its frequencies won't be to that degree.

I think it will be a 56 CU Navi card but due to TDP will be clocked around 1200-1300Mhz and will come at 9-10 TFLOPs.

Also it won't be a Zen based APU at 6 cores 16 threads.... Zen APU's on AMD's roadmap are all raven ridge based, Picasso is more than likely going to be the tech used and it maxes out at 4 cores 8 threads.

Also DLSS is a Nvidia tech... And Ray tracing?... Eh a 2080 Ti can't do it properly and a $400-500 console with a GCN archtitechure will do what?... 720p 30FPS with ray tracing?... Not happening.

Its fake, the person that created this has no idea what he is talking about.

Two facts with coming consoles:

  • Navi is a mid tier card with GTX 1080 targeted performance
  • Zen APU's max out at 4 cores and 8 threads

Only way to get 6 cores and 12 threads would be to glue two chips onto one die and disable two cores but if you go that route you are better off just disabling SMT and keeping 8 real cores with 8 threads.

Either way its not a generational leap over Pro and X1X, it will give us Vega 56 performance which is native 4K/30FPS for demanding games at best.

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#3 Edited by Gatygun (1297 posts) -

They won't op for a 6/12 solution its either 8 or 8/16 or 16. Got the feeling they go for a budget cpu again this time that isn't pushing much.

16gb could happen to press costs.

Gpu wise whatever amd can provide. They will have to go all out on it.

About raytracing, sony can easily release some demo games or small games with it active even on a weak gpu. Even if its as simple as a pool game. It's labels all the way for them. If something works or is functional isn't there concern. They need to tag as much labels towards it to hype it up.

However people aspecting a full generation leap forwards are going to be dissapointed. It's just going to be a upgrade of there current PS4 solution.

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#4 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Its almost 100% will be zen based and use a Navi based GPU.

9 to10 tflops seems a bit low to me.

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#5 Posted by Random_Matt (3476 posts) -

Aside from CPU, next gen will be a waste of time.

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#6 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Its almost 100% will be zen based and use a Navi based GPU.

9 to10 tflops seems a bit low to me.

Its not about what is low for you.

Its about what is possible with the GCN architecture which is what Navi is... 11.2 Tflops with 56 compute units at console TDP?... No chance.

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#7 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5577 posts) -

At this point, this thing is a "PS5" in name only.

If anything, they're only hurting themselves in the long run by not just calling this platform (which is absolutely just a PS4 Pro 2) a PS4 Pro 2, and leaving themselves room for a proper "Playstation 5" down the line, when theres an actual leap.

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#8 Posted by Gatygun (1297 posts) -
@StrongDeadlift said:

At this point, this thing is a "PS5" in name only.

If anything, they're only hurting themselves in the long run by not just calling this platform (which is absolutely just a PS4 Pro 2) a PS4 Pro 2, and leaving themselves room for a proper "Playstation 5" down the line, when theres an actual leap.

Welcome to the future.

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#9 Posted by GoldenElementXL (2411 posts) -

Lets ignore the fact that these specs are fake for a second. Look at how small of a jump we will be getting in specs from the Pro/X to Gen 9. And an argument can be made that the jump from base consoles to Pro/X isn't essential. "Next Gen" is gonna be so lame... It will easily be the smallest leap forward in video game history.

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#10 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5577 posts) -

@goldenelementxl:

I mean, they're "fake", but they're not really THAT fake tbh. Its not like this rumor is that removed from all the other rumors we've already heard about the PS5 already. We know they're targeting 1080ti performance, we know its using Navi and Zen 2, etc.

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#11 Posted by Zaryia (6703 posts) -

Hope you guys at least end up with 2nd place hardware next gen. 3rd place must suck atm.

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#12 Posted by Techhog89 (3091 posts) -

lol

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#13 Posted by pdogg93 (1211 posts) -

@zaryia: 3rd place? Xbone one still exists doesn’t it?

Avatar image for zaryia
#14 Edited by Zaryia (6703 posts) -
@pdogg93 said:

@zaryia: 3rd place? Xbone one still exists doesn’t it?

I'm only counting PC, PS4PRO, XB1X whenever I do any comparisons here by default.

So for hardware it is PC>XB1X>PSPRO

Avatar image for howmakewood
#15 Posted by Howmakewood (5532 posts) -
@StrongDeadlift said:

@goldenelementxl:

I mean, they're "fake", but they're not really THAT fake tbh. Its not like this rumor is that removed from all the other rumors we've already heard about the PS5 already. We know they're targeting 1080ti performance, we know its using Navi and Zen 2, etc.

Hope AMD gets their shit together with Navi, after the blunder of Vega they need to get back in the biz and actually make Nvidia work for the money. Some perspective: Vega 64 has a larger die size of 510mm2 vs 1080ti's 471mm2 while being 25-30% slower. Nvidia could cut their margins by quite the amount if they were forced to do so.

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#16 Posted by PAL360 (29327 posts) -

It will have more than 16GB RAM, that's for sure.

We have always seen a 16x jump in memory, even from 7th to 8th generatipns. I don't expect a 16x jump in 9th gen (that would mean 128GB, and honestly we don't need that leap anymore), but something like 32GB sounds logical.

Avatar image for howmakewood
#17 Posted by Howmakewood (5532 posts) -
@PAL360 said:

It will have more than 16GB RAM, that's for sure.

We have always seen a 16x jump in memory, even from 7th to 8th generatipns. I don't expect a 16x jump in 9th gen (that would mean 128GB, and honestly we don't need that leap anymore), but something like 32GB sounds logical.

32gb is extremely unlike unless there's a drastic chance in ram prices, be it ddr4, gddr or hbm

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#18 Posted by SchnabbleTab (1439 posts) -

@zaryia said:
@pdogg93 said:

@zaryia: 3rd place? Xbone one still exists doesn’t it?

I'm only counting PC, PS4PRO, XB1X whenever I do any comparisons here by default.

So for hardware it is PC>XB1X>PSPRO

According to Steam charts, PC isn't first place for 95% of the platform, lol.

Avatar image for SecretPolice
#19 Posted by SecretPolice (34166 posts) -

@howmakewood said:
@PAL360 said:

It will have more than 16GB RAM, that's for sure.

We have always seen a 16x jump in memory, even from 7th to 8th generatipns. I don't expect a 16x jump in 9th gen (that would mean 128GB, and honestly we don't need that leap anymore), but something like 32GB sounds logical.

32gb is extremely unlike unless there's a drastic chance in ram prices, be it ddr4, gddr or hbm

"16 GB DDR6"

OP is saying DDR6? :O

Avatar image for howmakewood
#20 Posted by Howmakewood (5532 posts) -
@SecretPolice said:
@howmakewood said:
@PAL360 said:

It will have more than 16GB RAM, that's for sure.

We have always seen a 16x jump in memory, even from 7th to 8th generatipns. I don't expect a 16x jump in 9th gen (that would mean 128GB, and honestly we don't need that leap anymore), but something like 32GB sounds logical.

32gb is extremely unlike unless there's a drastic chance in ram prices, be it ddr4, gddr or hbm

"16 GB DDR6"

OP is saying DDR6? :O

most likely means gddr6(what nvidia turing cards use for example)

Avatar image for SecretPolice
#21 Posted by SecretPolice (34166 posts) -

@howmakewood said:
@SecretPolice said:
@howmakewood said:
@PAL360 said:

It will have more than 16GB RAM, that's for sure.

We have always seen a 16x jump in memory, even from 7th to 8th generatipns. I don't expect a 16x jump in 9th gen (that would mean 128GB, and honestly we don't need that leap anymore), but something like 32GB sounds logical.

32gb is extremely unlike unless there's a drastic chance in ram prices, be it ddr4, gddr or hbm

"16 GB DDR6"

OP is saying DDR6? :O

most likely means gddr6(what nvidia turing cards use for example)

I suppose, it' just caught my eye and thought, when the heck will that be out. lol :P

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#22 Posted by DrLostRib (4367 posts) -

they're going to skip DDR5 and go straight to DDR6?

16GB DDR6!!!

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#23 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: DF already said up to 15 is possible. So your math is wrong.

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#24 Posted by osan0 (15219 posts) -

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

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#25 Posted by IvanGrozny (844 posts) -

2 decent exclusives per year. Yaay! Can't wait to get it 4 years after launch, when it has actual games.

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#26 Posted by UnrealGunner (1005 posts) -

You don't buy a console for the hardware if you guys care so much about hardware you would be gaming on PC

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#27 Posted by Zaryia (6703 posts) -
@SchnabbleTab said:
@zaryia said:
@pdogg93 said:

@zaryia: 3rd place? Xbone one still exists doesn’t it?

I'm only counting PC, PS4PRO, XB1X whenever I do any comparisons here by default.

So for hardware it is PC>XB1X>PSPRO

According to Steam charts, PC isn't first place for 95% of the platform, lol.

Which aren't completely accurate.

But If you wanna play that game, there's still a higher number of PCs that beat those consoles than the number of unit sales for those consoles, going by steam hardware survey and nvidia/ati sales numbers.

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#28 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: DF already said up to 15 is possible. So your math is wrong.

Same DF that said the Nintendo Switch would have a Tegra 2 chip?

What is possible is not what is probable. There is a difference.

Same reason why the PS4 and X1 launched with HD 7790/7850 level of GPU's when they could have used higher chips from AMD's 7 series and modified them to work around the TDP they desired.

Price and TDP and yields come to play and its something that companies now more than ever are taking into account due the state of all the manufacturing industries and how almost everything is using AMD and DRAM.

15 TFLOPs is possible... But that would repeat the same launch the PS3 had with its $599.

Everything depends on price.

If its a $399 launch like the PS4 expect the same level of performance relative to the market as the PS4 had, it will be a mid range Navi card... Not to mention that 4K bluray is still expensive which would also be a chunk of manufacturing.

I'll let you guys play about, but remember price is a big deal... 6 cores 12 threads, 16GB GDDR6, 1TB-2TB HDD, 12-15TFLOP Navi GPU, 4K Bluray, Vapour cooling, fast wifi, controller, packaging, marketing, $400?.... Ehhhh no. Corners will be cut and the first thing that is going is the excessive GPU and unnecessary SMT.

  • 2x 4 core Zen Picasso APU for 8 Cores 8 threads
  • 12-16GB GDDR6
  • 1TB 5400RPM HDD or SSHD
  • 9-10 TFLOP Navi rumoured mid range chip that performs close to a GTX 1080 for $250
  • 4K Bluray
  • $399

Want more than that?... Rewind back to 2006 and see what happened. The PS4 was a success why would Sony repeat a model that failed?

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#29 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: I don't expect 15 tf I do expect around 12 and that's completely feasible. There is also strong rumors that Sony helped develope Navi if that's the case expect a strong discount on the Silicon.

Also keep in mind Sony is in a far better financial position then last gen. I expect them to take a 50 to 100 dollar loss on each console and I could see it launching for $499. Last gen they didn't have 50 million people paying monthly services for online subscriptions.

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#30 Posted by Shewgenja (20821 posts) -

16 sounds like dedicated VRAM to me.

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#31 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@osan0 said:

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

Ram and CPU cores well threads in particular would be a waste of money and resources for 4K... 16GB would be more than enough not to mention its expensive even if it is considered low, remember that the X1X just came out and is a premium console and it has 12.

4K doesn't require those threads, the more physical cores the better the problem with current consoles is the IPC not the core count or threads even desktop PC's 6 cores is all you need and then some for 4K 60FPS due to the GPU bottleneck and windows is more taxing on CPU and RAM than the console's low level API and OS.

Also infinity fabric is neat but that EPYC chip design is server grade money, trickling that tech down to a console 1/20th the price?... It's not happening this gen.

At best they will use infinity fabric for the APU to get two clusters of cores on one die along with a navi chip.

Even HBM seems to be abandoned due to manufacturing costs vs performance compared to traditional DRAM for GPU's as the benefits for gaming just isn't there to justify the price.

I have said it the moment the Pro and X where announced... Say goodbye to the 4-6x generational leap in power. The industry doesn't move that quick to have hardware that much faster for the same price infact its very clear that moore's law in general seems to be hitting a wall the 2 year gap between the X1X and PS5 is not enough to have a new console with drastically better hardware aside from a newer CPU architecture in Zen which is needed and a 7nm based GCN card that would be midrange at best on PC there's not much they can do.

If the GPU is anything more than a $150-200 Navi desktop equivalent I would be genuinely surprised.

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#32 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: I don't expect 15 tf I do expect around 12 and that's completely feasible. There is also strong rumors that Sony helped develope Navi if that's the case expect a strong discount on the Silicon.

Also keep in mind Sony is in a far better financial position then last gen. I expect them to take a 50 to 100 dollar loss on each console and I could see it launching for $499. Last gen they didn't have 50 million people paying monthly services for online subscriptions.

Last gen they where running of off PS2 profits... They had a lot more money to invest into PS3 and projecting the same level of sales which backfired due to the cost of the console and backlash from the consumers and industry in general.

Nintendo has taken a step back in hardware and both Sony and Microsoft did this generation because they don't want to lose money if they don't have to.

Fanboys are the only ones making these fake leaks and the same people hoping they are true, like in boxing your only as good as your last fight... You can't expect a different move from a company unless their last move failed and the PS4 didn't fail so there is no logical reason for them to create a new console with the intent to repeat what they did with a console that did fail.

Also Sony helping with development?... That rumour is also false, Sony is PROBABLY and UNDOUBTEDLY helping in directing the CUSTOM APU that would go for their console they have little to no input on the design on Navi which has been in the works for over half a decade. That being said even if they were "helping" cost and TPD would still be a factor and there is no amount of help that can change the fact that Navi is GCN architecture its already hit a wall with Vega aside from using infinity fabric to create something with more CU's than 64 it would still even with the die shrink be too much for console TDP limits.

12 is possible... Its not probable. 15 is possible... Its not probable. 9-10 is possible... Its very likely base don TDP targets and price and yeilds.

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#33 Posted by ProtossRushX (4709 posts) -

The ps5 will make my gaming rig obsolete and i can't wait

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#34 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@ProtossRushX said:

The ps5 will make my gaming rig obsolete and i can't wait

Until you eventually upgrade your GPU... And developers start pushing consoles like they always do to extremes where framerate is heavily impacted.

Its the sad truth about console no matter how much power you put into them f***ing 20FPS... F***ing Monster Hunter you POS.

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#35 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: I'm talking about the PS4 gen. They were worth 9 billion on the launch of the PS4 and on the verge of bankruptcy. They are now worth over 70 billion and posting record profits.

And no these leaks are not all bullshit. AMD refused to comment on the rumor about Sony developing Navi and many insiders said it has some credability. Semiaccurate is also not a fanboy website and they accurately leaked both the Pro and X1X.

If they launched a console for $499 in 2019 that's not the same as releasing one for $599 in 2006. Its coming out 13 years later and would still be cheaper.

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#36 Posted by osan0 (15219 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@osan0 said:

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

Ram and CPU cores well threads in particular would be a waste of money and resources for 4K... 16GB would be more than enough not to mention its expensive even if it is considered low, remember that the X1X just came out and is a premium console and it has 12.

Also infinity fabric is neat but that EPYC chip design is server grade money, trickling that tech down to a console 1/20th the price?... It's not happening this gen.

At best they will use infinity fabric for the APU to get two clusters of cores on one die along with a navi chip.

Note: i have cut some parts of your original post for brevity:

On the ram: yeah you are probably right. 16GB does make the most sense the way things stand and it wouldnt be a deal breaker at 16GB.

on the CPU side: oh yeah i probably put that badly. i didnt mean to suggest that sony was going to use an epyc 64 core/128 thread zen2 server CPU in a console. that would be stupid. as you say, i think they will be using infinity fabric to hook up everything on the one MCM.

i.e. rather than having one 7nm die, itll be 2 chiplet zen 2 dies (maybe even 12 nm zen+ based CPUs if zen 2 isnt quite ready), a custom IO controller and the GPU all on the one MCM similar to that pic (nintendo used a more basic version in the wiiu: an MCM with the IBM CPU, AMD GPU and an arm core also for example). infinity fabric itself isnt expensive.

however the one thing to consider is that the choice of CPU is not going to be based on just "what do we need to get a PS4 game running at 4K". it's "what kind of CPU can we get that allows devs to do things they couldnt do before?" or "what CPU will really allow devs to enhance the underlying simulation?".

one of the big complaints from devs this gen on the CPU side is that they are fine for running PS3/360 type games at higher resolutions. but it doesnt allow them to do things they simply could not do before. we saw this with earlier titles in the gen where the likes of creed unity were scaled back because ubisoft didnt get the jump in CPU power they usually expect from one gen to the next then syndicate was pared back again on the crowds front.

Avatar image for Grey_Eyed_Elf
#37 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: I'm talking about the PS4 gen. They were worth 9 billion on the launch of the PS4 and on the verge of bankruptcy. They are now worth over 70 billion and posting record profits.

And no these leaks are not all bullshit. AMD refused to comment on the rumor about Sony developing Navi and many insiders said it has some credability. Semiaccurate is also not a fanboy website and they accurately leaked both the Pro and X1X.

If they launched a console for $499 in 2019 that's not the same as releasing one for $599 in 2006. Its coming out 13 years later and would still be cheaper.

No its worse, DRAM prices have risen dramatically since then... Not to mention the shortages and demands of silicon which is being used by Phones and Tablets and even smart TV's.

These leaks are all LEAKS... No real credibility.

Semmiaccurate LEAKED that Navi is a mainstream GPU that is targeting GTX 1080 performance, 12-15 TFLOPS with GCN would exceed GTX 1080 performance.

I am a member of their forums and remember the Vega rumours for X1X and the PS4 Pro having a 6-7 TFLOP GPU with a 4K Bluray player.

They are called Semmiaccurate for a reason, leaks get something right and then some parts completely wrong.

Not to mention that Semmiaccurate fully believe that Sony plans on making a PS4... PS4 PRO and now a PS4 Pro+ no PS4, Their article is title PS4.3.

It being leaked that it will use Zen and Navi... Is a no brainer anyone looking at AMD's roadmap would guess that. Its not hard to be in the ball park.

Avatar image for kenshiro3948
#38 Edited by kenshiro3948 (372 posts) -

I'm okay with these specs. The Zen based CPU already makes it piss all over the 1X and Pro and the GPU is a next generational leap over the base PS4 and X1.

4K @ 60fps should be attainable with these specs and 4K @ 30fps will be attainable for more demanding games. This is exactly the kind of specs I expect for the PS5 and anyone thinking the next Xbox will be a drastic jump over these specs is fooling themselves. If these console manufacturers want to launch a console with an affordable price they have to keep these specs in check. Anyone expecting RTX 2080Ti level performance from next gen is on some drugs.

Avatar image for Grey_Eyed_Elf
#39 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (5970 posts) -

@osan0 said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@osan0 said:

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

Ram and CPU cores well threads in particular would be a waste of money and resources for 4K... 16GB would be more than enough not to mention its expensive even if it is considered low, remember that the X1X just came out and is a premium console and it has 12.

Also infinity fabric is neat but that EPYC chip design is server grade money, trickling that tech down to a console 1/20th the price?... It's not happening this gen.

At best they will use infinity fabric for the APU to get two clusters of cores on one die along with a navi chip.

Note: i have cut some parts of your original post for brevity:

On the ram: yeah you are probably right. 16GB does make the most sense the way things stand and it wouldnt be a deal breaker at 16GB.

on the CPU side: oh yeah i probably put that badly. i didnt mean to suggest that sony was going to use an epyc 64 core/128 thread zen2 server CPU in a console. that would be stupid. as you say, i think they will be using infinity fabric to hook up everything on the one MCM.

i.e. rather than having one 7nm die, itll be 2 chiplet zen 2 dies (maybe even 12 nm zen+ based CPUs if zen 2 isnt quite ready), a custom IO controller and the GPU all on the one MCM similar to that pic (nintendo used a more basic version in the wiiu: an MCM with the IBM CPU, AMD GPU and an arm core also for example). infinity fabric itself isnt expensive.

however the one thing to consider is that the choice of CPU is not going to be based on just "what do we need to get a PS4 game running at 4K". it's "what kind of CPU can we get that allows devs to do things they couldnt do before?" or "what CPU will really allow devs to enhance the underlying simulation?".

one of the big complaints from devs this gen on the CPU side is that they are fine for running PS3/360 type games at higher resolutions. but it doesnt allow them to do things they simply could not do before. we saw this with earlier titles in the gen where the likes of creed unity were scaled back because ubisoft didnt get the jump in CPU power they usually expect from one gen to the next then syndicate was pared back again on the crowds front.

There's just not much they CAN do in terms of CPU that would drastically change things.

Star Citizen for example isn't restricted by hardware targets yet AMD is getting destroyed by Intels with half the cores and the difference from 6-8 core Ryzen chips are small for game and non existent at higher resolution.

So going from a 6 core 12 thread to a 8 core 8 thread on the SAME architechure especially if it means getting higher frequencies... Which is what the developers wanted, better IPC on the CPU side they never said we need more cores/threads the wanted more powerful CPU's which is what zen is to them but again it still won't be enough and might bottleneck to to desktop counter parts running 2x the frequencies of what consoles will have and still being slower than Intel, all they will do is increase price with no benefit at all.

The bold:

Its exactly what I said, 6 cores 12 doesn't make sense... when 8 REAL cores are faster for gaming.

Also 2x 7nm Zen 4core 8 thread chips and Navi... That would affect the friequencies of both due to TDP and frequencies especially on the CPU side of things is a VERY important part of why Intel dominates. That sacrifice for SMT is not going to be worth it for gaming where IPC is more important once you go past 4 cores.

Either way its all speculation and at the end of the day its a Zen based APU with a mid range Navi card in a plastic box for $400-500... Its not going to be a drastic change to Pro or X1X users, infact it will be a smaller jump than the PS4/X1S to Pro/X was which is scary.

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#40 Edited by ronvalencia (26529 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DYSQzvkrvPrQ&ved=2ahUKEwjq6oDVkMfeAhWOuFMKHee-AncQwqsBMAN6BAgJEA4&usg=AOvVaw3q1bxM3Ui99YAkQqN4QEHM

Could be and probably is BS but thought I'd post anyway. Some info from the video.

11.2 Tflop Navi based GPU

Zen based processor 6 core/12 threads

16 GB DDR6

Bunch of VR stuff baked in

Backwards compatibility with PS4

Some new Bluray Drive for UHD.

Useless without rasterization and ROPS hardware reveal.

Would Sony accept yet another quad rasterization based GPU for PS5?

Polaris 10/20 based IP

RB (Render Back end) includes ROPS read/write and ROPS fix function units. For graphics, TFLOPS means little without RB and Rasterizer hardware.

AMD has yet to master 64 ROPS over 256 bit bus designs while Vega M GH has 64 ROPS with single stack HBM v2.

AMD needs to double their L2 cache storage size just as NVIDIA's Turing doubled their L2 cache storage size. This is important for immediate mode tile render.

AMD needs to double their Geometry and Rasterizer unit count to eight units.

XBO and PS4 GPUs already has dual graphics command processor software ecosystem to support two direct graphics command list feeds from the two weak CPUs without using multiple Async compute path.

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#41 Edited by ronvalencia (26529 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@osan0 said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@osan0 said:

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

Ram and CPU cores well threads in particular would be a waste of money and resources for 4K... 16GB would be more than enough not to mention its expensive even if it is considered low, remember that the X1X just came out and is a premium console and it has 12.

Also infinity fabric is neat but that EPYC chip design is server grade money, trickling that tech down to a console 1/20th the price?... It's not happening this gen.

At best they will use infinity fabric for the APU to get two clusters of cores on one die along with a navi chip.

Note: i have cut some parts of your original post for brevity:

On the ram: yeah you are probably right. 16GB does make the most sense the way things stand and it wouldnt be a deal breaker at 16GB.

on the CPU side: oh yeah i probably put that badly. i didnt mean to suggest that sony was going to use an epyc 64 core/128 thread zen2 server CPU in a console. that would be stupid. as you say, i think they will be using infinity fabric to hook up everything on the one MCM.

i.e. rather than having one 7nm die, itll be 2 chiplet zen 2 dies (maybe even 12 nm zen+ based CPUs if zen 2 isnt quite ready), a custom IO controller and the GPU all on the one MCM similar to that pic (nintendo used a more basic version in the wiiu: an MCM with the IBM CPU, AMD GPU and an arm core also for example). infinity fabric itself isnt expensive.

however the one thing to consider is that the choice of CPU is not going to be based on just "what do we need to get a PS4 game running at 4K". it's "what kind of CPU can we get that allows devs to do things they couldnt do before?" or "what CPU will really allow devs to enhance the underlying simulation?".

one of the big complaints from devs this gen on the CPU side is that they are fine for running PS3/360 type games at higher resolutions. but it doesnt allow them to do things they simply could not do before. we saw this with earlier titles in the gen where the likes of creed unity were scaled back because ubisoft didnt get the jump in CPU power they usually expect from one gen to the next then syndicate was pared back again on the crowds front.

There's just not much they CAN do in terms of CPU that would drastically change things.

Star Citizen for example isn't restricted by hardware targets yet AMD is getting destroyed by Intels with half the cores and the difference from 6-8 core Ryzen chips are small for game and non existent at higher resolution.

So going from a 6 core 12 thread to a 8 core 8 thread on the SAME architechure especially if it means getting higher frequencies... Which is what the developers wanted, better IPC on the CPU side they never said we need more cores/threads the wanted more powerful CPU's which is what zen is to them but again it still won't be enough and might bottleneck to to desktop counter parts running 2x the frequencies of what consoles will have and still being slower than Intel, all they will do is increase price with no benefit at all.

The bold:

Its exactly what I said, 6 cores 12 doesn't make sense... when 8 REAL cores are faster for gaming.

Also 2x 7nm Zen 4core 8 thread chips and Navi... That would affect the friequencies of both due to TDP and frequencies especially on the CPU side of things is a VERY important part of why Intel dominates. That sacrifice for SMT is not going to be worth it for gaming where IPC is more important once you go past 4 cores.

Either way its all speculation and at the end of the day its a Zen based APU with a mid range Navi card in a plastic box for $400-500... Its not going to be a drastic change to Pro or X1X users, infact it will be a smaller jump than the PS4/X1S to Pro/X was which is scary.

7 nm ZEN v2 has 8 cores per CCX module which is different from 14nm/12nm ZEN v1.x's 4 core per CCX module.

Removing CCX to CCX communication within 8 core CPU group removes this latency problem.

ZEN v2 has proper support for 256 bit AVX, hence AMD claims on 2X floating point vector math per CPU core over ZEN v1.x

PC's Ryzen 7 3700 could have two chiplet with 16 cores.

Star Citizen has different results from game console CPU programming model Doom 2016. 4K games would be highly GPU bound and most 4K TVs are 60 hz limited, hence there's little point supporting 144 hz gaming.

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#42 Edited by Blackhairedhero (2352 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: But why use Navi and get 9 to 10 t flops when the old architecture could easily do that by the end of 2019?

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#43 Edited by ronvalencia (26529 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

The GPU being based on GCN with rumoured 3640 stream processing units puts it at 56.8 Compute units... A vega 56 has 56 compute units and comes in at 10.5 Tflops and runs at 1400Hz+, how did they get 11.2 TFLOPS with GCN with 56 CU's?.... 7nm die shrink would help but with desktop TDP and cooling, but the PS5 is a console so its frequencies won't be to that degree.

I think it will be a 56 CU Navi card but due to TDP will be clocked around 1200-1300Mhz and will come at 9-10 TFLOPs.

Also it won't be a Zen based APU at 6 cores 16 threads.... Zen APU's on AMD's roadmap are all raven ridge based, Picasso is more than likely going to be the tech used and it maxes out at 4 cores 8 threads.

Also DLSS is a Nvidia tech... And Ray tracing?... Eh a 2080 Ti can't do it properly and a $400-500 console with a GCN archtitechure will do what?... 720p 30FPS with ray tracing?... Not happening.

Its fake, the person that created this has no idea what he is talking about.

Two facts with coming consoles:

  • Navi is a mid tier card with GTX 1080 targeted performance
  • Zen APU's max out at 4 cores and 8 threads

Only way to get 6 cores and 12 threads would be to glue two chips onto one die and disable two cores but if you go that route you are better off just disabling SMT and keeping 8 real cores with 8 threads.

Either way its not a generational leap over Pro and X1X, it will give us Vega 56 performance which is native 4K/30FPS for demanding games at best.

Both Sony and MS are not accepting Vega 56/64 configuration at 7nm. Remember, Turing has doubled it's L2 cache storage over Pascal counterparts which is important for immediate mode tile render.

Both Vega 56 and X1X GPU** has 4MB L2 cache levels.

**X1X GPU has split 2MB L2 cache and 2MB render cache setup instead of Vega 56's unified 4MB L2 cache setup.

In 7nm generation, AMD needs to double L2 cache storage size just as NVIDIA's Turing L2 cache size improvements i.e. Vega 56/64 and X1X GPU scale needs to have 8 MB L2 cache.

AMD needs to scale from Vega M GH which already has quad rasterization/64 ROPS/24 CU into eight rasterization/128 ROPS/48 CU.

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#44 Posted by PSP107 (17284 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: But why use Navi and get 9 to 10 t flops when the old architecture could easily do that by the end of 2019?

So should people just wait for PS5 Pro/XboxTwoX?

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#45 Edited by ronvalencia (26529 posts) -

@kenshiro3948 said:

I'm okay with these specs. The Zen based CPU already makes it piss all over the 1X and Pro and the GPU is a next generational leap over the base PS4 and X1.

4K @ 60fps should be attainable with these specs and 4K @ 30fps will be attainable for more demanding games. This is exactly the kind of specs I expect for the PS5 and anyone thinking the next Xbox will be a drastic jump over these specs is fooling themselves. If these console manufacturers want to launch a console with an affordable price they have to keep these specs in check. Anyone expecting RTX 2080Ti level performance from next gen is on some drugs.

RTX 2080 Ti/GTX 1080Ti's secret sauce is with it's rasterization and ROPS read/write power i.e. six rasterization units via six GPC blocks and 88 ROPS superiority. Such rasterization/ROPS superiority doesn't exist in workloads like cryptocurrency which is pure TFLOPS compute with TMUs acting like read/write units.

TFLOPS are meaningless without read/write units.

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#46 Posted by ronvalencia (26529 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: But why use Navi and get 9 to 10 t flops when the old architecture could easily do that by the end of 2019?

1. AMD needs to master 64 ROPS over 256 bit bus. AMD is stuck at 32 ROPS over 256 bit bus design since Radeon HD 5870.

2. High bandwidth cache needs to be removed which is useless for games. High bandwidth cache has a higher latency when compared to L2 cache.

3. 64bit FP support needs to be remove which is useless for games.

4. Both XBO/PS4 has semi-custom command processors with two graphics command processors instead of PC's single graphics command processor. Think of hyper-threading on a single GPU.

PC Vega 64 only has a single graphics command processor.

5. If AMD delivers yet another quad rasterization powered GPU for 7 nm GPU products for the gaming market, then this is bloody ridiculous. Year 2013 era R9-290X's GPU quad rasterization design must be replaced.

AMD must focus on the core GPU hardware before they lose the GPU market i.e. without classic GPU's geometry/rasterization/ROPS hardware, it's just yet another DSP (Digital Signal Processing) math co-processor.

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#47 Posted by rzxv04 (281 posts) -

@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: But why use Navi and get 9 to 10 t flops when the old architecture could easily do that by the end of 2019?

AMD themselves mentioned it's not all about TFLOPS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0h6-VfH3Xo

It's possible to have similar TFLOPS but better end results while still being GCN and no that's not specific to HPC specific hardware.

A

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: I'm talking about the PS4 gen. They were worth 9 billion on the launch of the PS4 and on the verge of bankruptcy. They are now worth over 70 billion and posting record profits.

And no these leaks are not all bullshit. AMD refused to comment on the rumor about Sony developing Navi and many insiders said it has some credability. Semiaccurate is also not a fanboy website and they accurately leaked both the Pro and X1X.

If they launched a console for $499 in 2019 that's not the same as releasing one for $599 in 2006. Its coming out 13 years later and would still be cheaper.

No its worse, DRAM prices have risen dramatically since then... Not to mention the shortages and demands of silicon which is being used by Phones and Tablets and even smart TV's.

These leaks are all LEAKS... No real credibility.

Semmiaccurate LEAKED that Navi is a mainstream GPU that is targeting GTX 1080 performance, 12-15 TFLOPS with GCN would exceed GTX 1080 performance.

I am a member of their forums and remember the Vega rumours for X1X and the PS4 Pro having a 6-7 TFLOP GPU with a 4K Bluray player.

They are called Semmiaccurate for a reason, leaks get something right and then some parts completely wrong.

Not to mention that Semmiaccurate fully believe that Sony plans on making a PS4... PS4 PRO and now a PS4 Pro+ no PS4, Their article is title PS4.3.

It being leaked that it will use Zen and Navi... Is a no brainer anyone looking at AMD's roadmap would guess that. Its not hard to be in the ball park.

Yeah it's really bad with the RAM prices. Even if you cut down 1 GB of GDDR6 to about 15 bucks (shown as ~24 bucks), it's still very expensive.

I wouldn't be surprised for mixed RAM configs like the PS4 Pro, at least on one of the SKUs.

@PSP107 said:
@blackhairedhero said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: But why use Navi and get 9 to 10 t flops when the old architecture could easily do that by the end of 2019?

So should people just wait for PS5 Pro/XboxTwoX?

People won't. Combination of marketing, hype, monetization, "exclusives/quasi exclusives", etc.

Depends on the prices as well.

It still leverages from the base hardware (1.3/1.8 tflops [rough]) developers design a lot of games in then basically scaled up with the Pro/X. An argument against that is that we've already stalled in game design so we might barely get a "next gen core gameplay" though novel things like that Star Citizen Face OIP, Sophisticated Cloud AI implementations, etc. might feel "fresh" but that probably is less about hardware power than interesting new programming/features.

We might also have superior upscaling techniques or dedicated hardware that targets and surpasses current native 4K console titles that isn't possible or as efficient even with the current Pro and X.

Still, we are at a pace that could be slowing down, tech in general. Not just consoles. Might have to do with Silicon limitations.

If ever we see a faster resurgence of tech like going closer back to moore's law, it won't be with the upcoming next gen consoles.

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#48 Posted by rzxv04 (281 posts) -

@osan0 said:

its a plausible leak (though, as expected, says nothing really about the GPU. navi is a bit of a black box).

on the CPU: 6 core/12 threads in a 2xCCX setup does make sense. its probably 6cores/12 threads available for games with the 7th reserved for the OS and the 8th disabled for yields. That would be my guess anyway.

AMD revealed a new chiplet setup recently which could be applicable to next gen consoles as its easier to configure and scale up (its built around this idea of chiplets and the memory controller being separated out) http://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/amd_reveals_transformative_chiplet_design_for_zen_2_epyc_processors/1

so we could have 2 7nm chiplet zen2 CPUs, a 14nm memory controller and navi..whatever that turns out to be, all on the one module.

ram: 16GB...kinda low (im assuming it refers to GDDR6). again it could be 16GB available to games and maybe another 4GB reserved for the OS. developers seem happy with ram though so there may be smaller leap so that the BOM can be focused on the MCM (not really an SOC is the linked setup is used).

GPU: in terms of flops: dissapointing going from the Pro or 1X. its not a huge leap. going to an X1 or PS4 though....well that is more in line with a proper generation leap. MS and sony really should have waited. the pro and 1X are just such a waste.

If true (big if) solid console overall. certainly a better buy for PS4 owners than going for a PS4 to a pro.

Yeah it's expected thanks to the mid-gen refresh, some disappointment at least but I think that could be ever so slightly mitigated as games are still designed with the bases in mind. Diminishing returns in AAA design though, well that's another can of worms.

Still, in a few serene and still comparisons, Uncharted Collection on the PS4 vs UC4 has less of an impact going from GoW 2 to 3 but scene density and animations/animation noises are definitely better.

We'll probably get closer to a Battlefield PS360 Era to Battlefield PS4/X1 era exclusive kind of jump but not exactly as much.

As for low RAM, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a new hybrid storage system with an SSD thrown in somewhere inside. OS and Game controlled and might not really be used in a traditional PC sense where the entire game is stored into. It's possible they might not even advertise it on specs beside console boxes. I don't think they advertise something such as the ARM cpu with 256mb ram on that PS4 side box do they?

You can get 120 G SSD for $ 20 bucks today. Console manufactures would probably get a big discount through millions of a bulk. Doesn't have to be top of the line Samsungs to gain the benefits of an SSD.

Still, IDK if it'd be better to invest that extra $ 10-15 for more RAM instead of putting a non traditional SSD implementation.

I'm not sure about the X though. Isn't MS getting a huge positive public PR by having the best looking multi-plats for a console thanks to DF, Youtube comparisons, etc.? Then again it costs $ 50-100 more and I'm not sure if enough of the console market impacts the userbase.

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#49 Posted by SchnabbleTab (1439 posts) -

@zaryia said:
@SchnabbleTab said:
@zaryia said:
@pdogg93 said:

@zaryia: 3rd place? Xbone one still exists doesn’t it?

I'm only counting PC, PS4PRO, XB1X whenever I do any comparisons here by default.

So for hardware it is PC>XB1X>PSPRO

According to Steam charts, PC isn't first place for 95% of the platform, lol.

Which aren't completely accurate.

But If you wanna play that game, there's still a higher number of PCs that beat those consoles than the number of unit sales for those consoles, going by steam hardware survey and nvidia/ati sales numbers.

How are they not accurate?

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#50 Edited by Zaryia (6703 posts) -
@SchnabbleTab said:
@zaryia said:
@SchnabbleTab said:
@zaryia said:

I'm only counting PC, PS4PRO, XB1X whenever I do any comparisons here by default.

So for hardware it is PC>XB1X>PSPRO

According to Steam charts, PC isn't first place for 95% of the platform, lol.

Which aren't completely accurate.

But If you wanna play that game, there's still a higher number of PCs that beat those consoles than the number of unit sales for those consoles, going by steam hardware survey and nvidia/ati sales numbers.

How are they not accurate?

It's opt-in, people have multiple setups with their potatoes hooked in, and not everyone uses Steam.

But that is irrelevant, even going by that data (as well as nvidia/ati data) there are more PCs that beat XB1Xs or PROs sold. Making your deflection to population pointless.

PC is first place for hardware.